How to Scale the BD Org of a $1B+ Tech Company

Carter (00:01.974)
Hey Pat, give the people a quick intro. Who are you and what do you do?

Pat Mulvey (00:05.102)
Totally. Yeah, name's Pat Mulvey, based out of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I'm the global director of business development at an insure tech company called ZyWave.

Carter (00:16.036)
So you were brought into ZyWave to reset and scale the business development org. What's your process for figuring out what's working and what needs to be changed?

Pat Mulvey (00:25.006)
Totally very good starting question. It comes down to the rigor in Salesforce. You have to be able to, whether it's by specific product category, segmentation bands, whatever the case is, really understand what deals are sticky and what's repeatable. That is only as good as your data. And what we're finding in the current state is what has the most velocity? Where can we enable the reps to either start self-sourcing their own business?

or create this flywheel effect, so by product category or segment, you know what the sweet spot is for your ICP, and then you can start testing across other ICPs and profiles to see where your TAM expansion might land.

Carter (01:03.232)
Is this strategy heavily influenced by what you did to Drata or completely different?

Pat Mulvey (01:09.098)
It feels completely different. If you ask my CMO, think especially in quarter one, I came out swinging with the idea of what we did at Drata is going to work here. And you learn very quickly of just because it worked at one institution doesn't mean it's going to work at another. Your buyers are different, your technology, your product is entirely shifted. So the lessons you learn in those types of roles will always stick with you. And I think the hardest part that sales leaders and any people leader in general will have to face is that just because you did it at one shop, it's going to

might not work at the other. You can't just rinse and repeat a go-to-market model. And that was a piece that I had to have this aha moment with that I literally even just entering Q2 in two days have to come to terms with of we're in a different landscape. We got to do things in the way that's only unique to our business. You can borrow from those. So I think the pace and the rigor that I got from my time in Dorada 100 % is at the forefront of my mind on a daily basis. But strategy, it is entirely entirely different.

Carter (02:04.951)
Yeah.

Carter (02:08.91)
Okay, that makes sense. When you're coming into a new company, how do you convince good BDRs to join? I saw on LinkedIn, you were trying to get people from your college, like maybe people just graduating from your college, but how do you think about that? How do you go about?

Pat Mulvey (02:22.337)
That is one thing that can be repeatable from prior shops is the profile of are they athletes? Are they already working? Do they come from a specific area with their studies or schools? But you're really sussing out more of the hypothetical talent. You're trying in the same way that we're getting to know each other here if it's, can we do a podcast and go hit a skate park or hit a lift or go hang out and just kick it.

Carter (02:41.71)
Mm-hmm.

Pat Mulvey (02:48.085)
In the same way of the more you interview and see top performers come through the funnel from the first time that they're interviewing to then getting promoted to AE, you can start to normalize what that wants to look like. So I can say for me, it's really finding these, these young bucks and buckets who just are ready to get out and go do something with their life. They can have, as I'm sure you've seen in other podcasts or stories where people will say, I want someone to tell me a

a story about how they weren't the smartest, they weren't the brightest, their family came from XYZ background, whether doctors or on the other end of the spectrum and they wanted something differently. I'm looking for those identifiers. I want to see who's out there trying to build something for themselves and willing to put their heads down and to do it. It's by all means, it's not a job where it's, hey, you're going to be filling people's coffee cups, you're going to be on the phones, you're going be running discovery, doing deal progression. It's going to be an intro to sales. You have to be serious about it. This isn't a

Carter (03:34.03)
Right.

Pat Mulvey (03:40.885)
a path for people that want to dip their toe in the water and see if I want to give it a shot. And if it doesn't work out, it doesn't want to work out. It's I'm looking for those compelling behaviors and stories of people in a position that are like, I'm ready to go be at the top. But I know I have to start here. It's that fundamental piece of they're in this moment and they know that's the starting point. They're not thinking 10 years ahead that they want to go be the best enterprise, which I know so many of us always think about the progression, the growth. But it comes down to that.

Carter (04:07.438)
Right, yeah.

Pat Mulvey (04:11.478)
realistic fact of I'm here, this is where I'm starting, and I'm going to do everything and give everything I have. Those are the ones that appeal to me the most that once onboarded, ramped, and starting to sell generally do the best.

Carter (04:24.962)
And you're saying a lot of the same, a lot of things come up between now that you've seen so many people come through the funnel, a lot of the same things come up where you can spot pretty quickly who's going to do well and who's not, you're saying for the most part.

Pat Mulvey (04:35.438)
100%. 100%. It's like you have to suss him out on their grit. they're somebody that just comes from academia but as sharp as a tack, why? If there's somebody like there's a rep of mine that came through an incubator for prior professional athletes who played at the Broncos and if he's listening, you know exactly who you are, who just came in and was like, that NFL was my time. It's done. This is the thing.

And from day one, he was just, had this level of commitment as other athletes that I've worked with had to, they just have this innate focus on it being a game against themselves more than anything. And then those are the people that you see at the top and you ask them and thinking, do you think you're better than everybody? Do you feel like there's a hierarchy between you being top performers, everyone else? they're like, no, dude, I just wake up every day and it's me against me. That, that athletic background I've found really helps personify that into just a natural habit in their day to day.

Carter (05:33.194)
On LinkedIn, you shared a story from drought about Troy Markowitz door dashing you egg bites. You said good leaders lead great leaders lead from the front. How are you taking that concept into your role at ZyWave?

Pat Mulvey (05:46.787)
That was Troy, if you're listening. That was awesome. Man, it just, comes down to a few different factors. It's always running spiffs. If I see somebody do something incredible, I will always pay out of pocket and say, Hey dude, order yourself some dinner or where's, what's your address? Where are you at in the country? Let me ship you a pizza. I always want them to be able to feel that kind of love and find that common ground. Cause I don't want, especially with this kind of title or especially that of Troy or anybody else in the C-suite.

to not feel like you're not seen. People in pre-sales and the AE or the channel, they're doing the work to drive the pipeline and revenue. With leadership, we architect the process. But if you're not making them feel the love and feel seen, where that instance literally started by him on a leadership call just housing breakfast and was like, dude, that looks delicious. What are you having? And it cut just the ice. We were talking, we were joking, and then that's just a really grateful thing to feel.

scene that he sent a bunch of egg bites for me and my kids to slam on a random Tuesday. So I make sure that every single day when I see that somebody's doing really good, be like, hey, you deserve a coffee, you deserve lunch. It's on me or it's via SPF budget. Those things always should be baked into whatever process and program you have. Cause it just says, Hey dude, see, I feel you keep doing your thing, but this is on, this is on me. Cause I see you.

Carter (06:56.248)
Yeah.

Carter (07:11.808)
Every rep has been through a leadership change. What do you notice about the sales reps who adapt really fast and the ones that struggle or versus the ones that struggle?

Pat Mulvey (07:21.592)
The ones that struggle, excuse me, are generally the ones that don't really reach out proactively for help. You can see in the staging of their deals or the volume of meetings that are being set or the velocity of those opportunities that if the activity isn't there, that's usually the trigger. as the leader, you got to be a bit more proactive. But even in those sessions, you can always feel this shaky ground. The ones that might say, especially with me coming on board, the people that came into my office that said,

Don't know you, dig the background, I'm here. Show me your tricks, I'm gonna give you what I have. And the others that felt a little bit shaky and weren't able to be in that same position to be proactive and say, I'm buried here and I'm struggling here, where do we meet in the middle? The ones that generally do the best are just, they might have the struggle point. One of my top performers is that to a T where he will, I don't wanna say complain by any stretch again, if he's listening, you know who you are, of,

There's change and you're naturally attuned to want to push back on it. But the more that you just let it happen and unleash it, the faster and the easier it's going to be. But that all comes down to how you operate intrinsically. That if you're not willing to have that conversation, to put yourself out there with a new or existing or a newly promoted leader, that's where you're going to struggle. Because now you don't feel comfortable going to that individual, asking for support or feeling like,

you're doing yourself a disservice, even though that sense of protection might make you feel a little bit safer that you're not acknowledging what's hurting you. But if you don't acknowledge it, then it's going to be two months, it's going to be three months, six months. And then you start to see the performance dip and disengagement. So it's a long winded answer, but I can see the people that really struggle just, they sit back, they don't ask for help. They don't push themselves to get into the weeds to really understand why the changes were made.

what the shift means and how they can go out and attack.

Carter (09:25.38)
That's interesting because it kind of seems a little bit like your other answer when you're talking about commitment. It sounds like the guys that are making it happen are pretty committed from day one.

Pat Mulvey (09:34.219)
Yeah, 100%.

Carter (09:36.854)
What's the most common bad habit you see in BDRs that they may not, well maybe it's obvious, but some ones that they may not know is hurting them, right? They may not realize it.

Pat Mulvey (09:46.958)
I'd say the biggest one, from my experience, just opinion, comes down to time management. That if you don't have the day chunked into specific aspects of your workflow, that's where you're going to get your butt kicked. Whether that's for me when I was a seller, just as an example, from sometimes as early as 6 to 10 a.m., that's where I got tunes in, coffee, I'm prospecting. That's the revenue driving activity of what deals do I want to go penetrate? Who do I need to get out for a signature? What can I do?

that's gonna allow me to wake up, listen to some music, put on a show that I've seen for the millionth time, set a stage, and then go into the next task. And whether that's calls, meetings, demos, internal enablement, whatever the case is, but having that structure, at least for me as a seller and now a leader, is if I'm allowing myself to have the structure to do what's necessary to get things over the line and progressed, those little steps have a pretty compounding effect, but when the day is done,

You don't have this, this feeling as I've seen other reps who don't have the time management that it gets to be three o'clock and they go, dude, I've just wasted my entire day. Putzing around, making a few calls. I've been cleaning. I've been hanging out cause I'm remote or I'm hybrid. And now it's three and I got to bang out activity just for the sake of banging out activity. And then I'm prospecting and doing a bad job until nine. Cause now my cortisol level just spiked to an insane degree. So if you're not setting yourself up with that kind of

Carter (10:58.916)
Mm-hmm.

Pat Mulvey (11:13.909)
Again, it falls on commitment, but expectation that at these hours I'm doing X, Y, Z tasks. So when the day is done, you can say, hey, even if it didn't pop at the rate that I wanted it to, I know I'm doing the work that's going to move the needle. So if it wasn't today, it's going to be tomorrow. And if for whatever reason it's not tomorrow, it's still going to be this week. You still have time because you're managing your time, but the necessary outputs within those chunks of time.

Carter (11:38.136)
How do you coach someone who is underperforming? What does that look like in reality when you're talking to them one on one? What do you actually do?

Pat Mulvey (11:45.518)
It comes from, it has to come from a good place. I've seen it on the other end where people are underperforming and there's a lot of finger pointing and terse language and you have to really first peel the layers back of what got us here? What's going on? Always leaning with the question, be like, dude, are you good? Carter, what's going on with calls? You're not making them or you're faking them. You're banging out activity for the sake of doing it. Like walk me through your day. Is everything okay with your personal life?

I'm here to support. want to get you on the right path because every leader knows that a coaching conversation leads to a coaching plan, a PIP, and then an exit. And sometimes there are people out there that can beat those plans if they're effectively enabled. Not always the case. But if you're able to get in front of it proactively to be able to say, they aren't getting what they need probably from me, or this isn't the right role from them, let's just have a closed laptop type of conversation. All tools, exited out. Just talk through it.

Carter (12:37.732)
Yeah.

Pat Mulvey (12:44.383)
Is this what you want to do? But the identifying factors always come down to the math. you're don't, if I shouldn't say your, if the go-to-market program tied to revenue and quota is based on math, the activity metrics that every seller should have from self-sourcing and pipeline are all based on a specific model. So if you can look at, they making enough calls? Are they sending enough emails? Are they hitting the right personas with the right stories?

time aside, are they doing the right stuff that's been modeled out within your go-to-market org so they can have a path forward? You never want to be the KPI police and incentivize them to just ripping a bunch of calls for the sake of doing it. But if you're able to peel those layers back to see as an activity thing, is it skill, is it will, or is there just something else going on? Then you can make it customizable to them and give them the support they need. Whether that is personal or they need space or a new framework and structure.

Carter (13:28.579)
Yeah.

Pat Mulvey (13:41.774)
where you get to the point where it's, man, don't know if sales is the right thing for you. What do you want to be when you grow up? How can I help bridge that? Cause it might not be here, but what can we do in this interim together to get you prepared for it? Not every shop is like that, but if you can do it early, they may feel better on performing for you. They might take the stress off in that cortisol zip, as opposed to where I've seen it of the flip side of it of, Hey, this has been a trailing performance issue. You're not taking the feedback.

and you just gotta go straight to the coaching plan, those conversations still suck. Because then there's a cortisol spike for everybody, and you're fighting tooth and nail to try and get to a number, and it's not effective for both parties.

Carter (14:23.756)
Yeah, and you're saying at that point, the person is probably toast, right? If you don't get ahead of it.

Pat Mulvey (14:27.117)
Yeah. 100 % because then you have to undo so many habits where if you hired that person, if you onboarded them, you saw them through ramp and there's been this trailing effect across those stages that don't seem to make sense that lines up with your expectations for performance. Did you set the expectations? Have you made an ongoing professional development plan that's going to support them throughout or has it been a separate situation?

but it's all on us as leaders to have an eye on all of our people, expecting unexpected, but make sure you're meeting them where they're at from start to finish, even if it's a team you inherit or that you built on your own.

Carter (15:08.418)
You're also developing frontline managers. What's the biggest mistake new sales managers make when they start coaching sales reps?

Pat Mulvey (15:17.121)
They are, I can say this from my perspective too, they're focused on the sales game more than putting on a hat of a leader. You're not a peer anymore. So the way that you speak to everyone and you have to hold yourself to a different standard, it changes. You go from being cube or Zoom homies and making calls together to being that person's manager. So if you don't start to find a way of separating yourself because you're not a player anymore.

There should always be environments where it's players only, where your sellers and your reps are collaborating together and you're not a part of it. And the thing I've seen people struggle with is they try to still infuse themselves into those environments when they need to be pulled away and focused on different tasks. I struggled with that going from a seller to a leader of I want to still be in the pocket with them and I always will be to a degree, but it's knowing that that's not my job anymore. I have to build the systems that support them and trust.

that they can do the job to the best of their ability. My way was my way and that doesn't mean that it's gonna be theirs.

Carter (16:23.352)
What to wrap it up, what advice would you give a sales rep right now who wants to be in your seat in let's say five years or just down the line at some.

Pat Mulvey (16:34.739)
really think about it. The leadership track has to be something that's ingrained in you from day one. It is I personally don't have a choice. I feel I've always been in leadership capacities, whether in sports or with family and my friends. And I've done the A.E. thing. I've sold for a number of years of scaled businesses. And now I'm at this stage over the last three years where it's just it's the thing. Nothing else interests me. And it comes with its own.

bag. It's its own weight. And I've seen other people that think it's the sexy thing and they want to go do it and then they get frustrated because people management isn't there. Isn't there jam and you have to really think of are you a leader personally even in your family and your friend group? Do people come to you? Because if you go this route, it is a very humbling experience. You will be wrong more than you're right.

You have to adapt and pivot, if it's something you really want to do, give it a lot of thought. Make sure it's the thing and that there's a calling to it. Because if you don't have the calling and you're just going to chase the bag like anything, you might do fine. But if you want to make an impact that's driven by something that's true to you inherently that, for me, I can't even fully describe, I just know this is the thing, that's the kind of volition that you have to have.

Carter (17:56.334)
So you're saying it's in people's nature, for the most part? Yeah.

Pat Mulvey (17:58.477)
100%. 100%. Or you're built and you discover it, you have to be willing. But if you're going to do it, it's one of those things of you got to commit to it.

Carter (18:08.908)
Okay, perfect. Well, I think we got some good stuff here. I will end it here.

Pat Mulvey (18:12.93)
sick.