Everything you need to know about selling mortgage tech in 30 mins | Fred Ramstedt (Wipro)

Carter (00:01.038)
Hey Fred, give the people a quick intro. Who are you? What do you do now?

Fred Ramstedt (00:06.678)
Sure, so my name is Fred Ramstedt and I've spent the last eight years working with mortgage lenders on how technology can improve the way loans actually move through their system. And I started on the AI side, focused on document intelligence, helping lenders, mortgage insurers, and servicers automate classification, extraction, and validation across the

loan life cycle. And I think that's what's given me a detailed view into the inner workings of loan manufacturer servicing and determining whether a low down payment borrower, that lender should get some some coverage in issuing that loan. And more recently, I've been working on the platform side with Wipro NetOxygen, where the conversation has shifted dramatically.

from optimizing individual steps to thinking more broadly about how the entire loan manufacturing process should work. And I suppose what's been consistent across both is helping lenders reduce cost, improve speed, and ultimately deliver a truly better borrower experience.

Carter (01:32.46)
What would you say, because you sort of said it, the differences between what you were selling at True and Wipro Gallagher, what would you say are the big differences in how those two deals get sold, like how you have to approach those?

Fred Ramstedt (01:45.426)
Well, I mean, that's a good question and very different, right? At True, we were solving for very specific operational problems, document classification, data extraction. It's astounding to me, even to this day, and not just in mortgage, but in other industries, how much paper is involved in any business process where a desirable outcome is I can get to it quickly.

I don't have a lot of things to correct. And if I've got customers, they're satisfied and I'm actually building a widget, say a loan, I can do that in fewer steps, which when you think about how expensive it is to manufacture things, that's a good idea. Now, at Wipro, it's materially different. You're not optimizing a single step. You're helping really define how the entire loan is going to get manufactured. And I think the

perhaps the bigger shift that's happening in the industry today, and I'm keen to catch up with some of my former colleagues and current colleagues and clients who are at ICE this week. know, as lenders are starting to realize that the biggest opportunity isn't just improving the steps in a given process, it's really redesigning the process itself.

Carter (03:08.938)
Okay. When you're selling AI into mortgage, what, I know there's some skepticism there, at least from the lender side, from time to time. What proof makes buyers believe the ROI story?

Fred Ramstedt (03:16.848)
Almost always. Yeah.

Fred Ramstedt (03:23.078)
Yeah, that is where the rubber hits the road. And I think the proof in the pudding, which presumably is still the taste, is that in mortgage, I don't think it's technical. It's really operational, right? I participated in numerous proofs of concept, and the ones that were most successful were where the success criteria were

were well-defined. And it's very much the same in just the process itself of selling something where there is a desirable ROI or there should be. Because why am I buying a widget if it's like what Warren Buffett said, price is what you pay and value is what you get. And the most elusive value that I think mortgage lenders get is the ROI. And so what do they care about?

they care about speed, cost, and risk. Right? And if you can show, materially show, that a workflow is moving faster, requires fewer touches, and is maintaining compliance, that's where that ROI conversation becomes real. And it certainly also helps to have customers who have seen a demonstrable ROI. Because I think...

that in today's environment where the cost to originate always seems to be creeping up, you have to have a measurable impact. And one of the ways in which you can prove that workflow can be improved in that way is having your customers love what you do and tell others about it. Not just believe what the talking head is saying about this, that, and the other thing. You really need to show it. And so at the moment, I think,

Carter (04:53.249)
Right.

Fred Ramstedt (05:17.934)
that clicks for them, that's where the conversation shifts from capability to workflow redesign.

Carter (05:28.564)
What does good discovery look like in a mortgage tech sale? What are the questions that expose urgency versus just having a normal conversation, you know, just a nice conversation.

Fred Ramstedt (05:37.805)
Yeah, I mean, like, I'm sure many of the conversations that took place in Las Vegas this week and at any other any other conferences, probably the same rehash or the same kind of talk track. And those conversations are important because relationships are what drive a lot of the a lot of the movement in sales. But I don't know that good discovery in mortgage is about asking more questions or

or even better questions, it's really understanding how a loan actually moves from point A to point Z. Where does it slow down? Where is it getting touched multiple times? Where are people re-keying data or revalidating the same information? Or worse, where you actually have, and there are often displacement sales in

in intelligent document processing solutions. And there is almost always a replacement sale in place when you're talking about a point of sale or a loan origination system. So, you know, they're already working with something. And so once you understand that in their process, because everybody seems to do things the same, the outcome is the same, they do, they achieve that outcome differently. They even call documents different names, for example. But

If you understand the process, where the inefficiencies are become obvious. And I think one question that works really well is it's kind of like the magic wand, right? If you could change one step in your origination process tomorrow, what would it be? And that tends to surface where the real friction is.

and then you address the friction and talk about the outcomes that your solution can afford the lender.

Carter (07:38.454)
When you find something where the value is obvious and the lender seems interested, but they still don't move forward, what's usually the real issue there? Like what things come up at that point?

Fred Ramstedt (07:47.616)
Well, yeah, no, that I think is change management and the risk that's associated with changing something, right? I don't think lenders struggle where to see value or to understand the value that another solution may offer their business. They struggle with how are we going to take on

the risk associated with this change. Because it's not just a technology replacement, it's a workflow change, redesign. People are gonna balk at trying something new, particularly if they're not involved, even peripherally, in understanding that their company is thinking of making a material change. And I think when you're talking about an IDP solution, Docs to Data,

The impact is probably less obvious to, you know, workers, processors, underwriters, et cetera. They're just dealing with higher quality, ostensibly higher quality data, which saves them all the time. know, so everybody loves that. You know, loan origination system, point of sale, you know, that's where, you know, it's a heart and lung transplant. You have a team of surgeons and other people that are involved in helping the patient understand what's going to happen and when and how.

Right? So I think it's not so much hesitation about, you know, again, what can we do differently to manufacture a loan, you know, more efficiently, less cost, et cetera. It's what's the implementation risk? Do we have the eternal stakeholders in alignment? And are there competing priorities? Right?

Because if there are what are those, you're going to have to surface what those competing priorities are. And that might just be a reluctance to take on more projects which themselves have their own measure of risk and may even be, because this has happened more than once, we want to have an IDP solution. This happens at true frequently. But we're actually in the process of changing our LOS.

Fred Ramstedt (10:12.924)
You know, so in that case, you kind of already know that your sale is going to be a longer cycle to close because that change is monumental, right? And that could be a year, depending on the size of the lender and the complexity of their business to, you know, pull out one LOS and put in another. So I think it's just helping them get comfortable with transition and

I think, I mean, I'm guilty of it. think you're probably guilty of it. Carter changing things is, runs contrary to a creature of habit, right? I do it this way, always this way. But, you know, once they get comfortable with the transition and moreover they have confidence, or you've built the confidence that your company can make the implementation as seamless as possible.

has done this numerous times for similar lenders just like you. In fact, you can talk to them about their experience and how they're enjoying what we're doing for them today, if I want to say enjoy. But you get the idea. That's how we're going to get you there. This is what you're going to get when you're there. But you've got to get over the internal hurdles that, wow, this sounds really good, but...

What's going to take to actually do this change? And are we ready for that change? And I think that's the baggage I think most executives have when they're thinking about doing this. And that this has happened numerous times before in their careers. And a lot of times, let's be honest, in mortgage technology, there have been many flashes in the pan, many promises promised, and yet the realization of a

Carter (11:40.717)
Right.

Fred Ramstedt (12:06.998)
lower cost to originate because you've installed a widget that does this, that, and the other, maybe the latest shiny object actually failed to deliver or wasn't easily implemented. Or worse, the seller and the seller's team didn't communicate adequately enough to the customer how much change is actually going to take place.

and what's going to be incumbent upon them as contributors to the outcome that they desire by choosing to work with you.

Carter (12:46.754)
That makes a lot of sense. So you're saying the way to get around this is to make them feel comfortable and give them confidence to make the change for the most part.

Fred Ramstedt (12:52.581)
Yeah, you have absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Right. Everybody wants to drive a luxury car. Who doesn't? Right. And then there are other variables that you have to consider. Is it a lease? Do I have to operate cash flow to pay for this car? Or, you know, maybe I'm more mindful of efficiency and that also dictates the type of car I'm going to buy.

It still has an engine, still has wheels, it has seats and the steering wheel is going to get me from point A to point B, but I still have to think about is that the right car for me? Is it too much car or not enough? And I don't know if that's always the best example for technology, but I think most Americans still have a car or know how to buy a car and whatnot. I don't know that it's all that different.

Carter (13:53.506)
You had to switch it up a little bit. You were saying this off before we were recording a little bit, but you went from a smaller company at True to a very big company at Wipro. What changed about your selling motion, your deal support, and what do you miss or not miss about each environment? And would you recommend one thing, like would you recommend somebody work for a big company or a small company?

Fred Ramstedt (14:17.057)
Well, yeah, think, and even before I got to True, where I was their first sales hire, I had a career on Wall Street, working for large companies, household names as it were, ultimately ending my career on Wall Street at a Brazilian company.

that essentially was market data and whatnot, and a much smaller company. So, you know, I've had that kind of back and forth between large and small throughout my career. But I guess the biggest difference is the scale of the conversations that I'm having now and the resources that are behind it, as well as the layers of experience.

that an organization like Wipro brings to bear. at Wipro, NetOxygen is one of two products that the company sells and supports and implements. There are only two sellers, and yet Wipro has thousands of sellers doing services. That's how narrow a focus at

Wipro 2 products are right.

Carter (15:45.038)
Oh, you're saying just to make sure I understand you, you're saying there's two people that actually sell it and there's thousands of servicers, like two salesmen at the company.

Fred Ramstedt (15:50.497)
Yeah. No, So Wipro is largely an IT services company. Right? And so on the pro- which are services, right? Managed services and whatnot. What we sell at Wipro and we work for a division of Wipro called Wipro Gallagher Solutions, right? That's the product, NetOxygen, a loan origination, a point of sale.

Carter (15:57.122)
Got it, got it, okay.

Fred Ramstedt (16:19.006)
layers of AI in it as well with intelligent document processing among other things. So we're just two people, two mouthpieces, but we have an army of people behind us. And so my main job here is to maintain the relationships I have, leverage partnerships that I've built in the past, particularly at True, because Wipro was one of my partner relationships at True.

Carter (16:31.254)
Okay, yeah.

Fred Ramstedt (16:48.031)
And I think at True, since I'm talking about that now, the things there were much more fast and focused, right? Because we were solving very specific problems and we could move quickly. And I think that's one of the advantages like a startup moving into early stage and then having a range of customers in a diversity of areas within mortgage, like I was saying, servicing.

mortgage insurance, lending, all very different. And then there are the BPO relationships where if you could do the job better, you're impacting the BPO's bottom line, making them more profitable by doing the same thing with an altogether different widget in place, So all very different. when you have that experience and you know that you have perhaps a lot more latitude in negotiating,

That's kind of exciting if you're the seller, right? However, at Wipro, the conversations are much broader and they're much more strategic in mind. It's much more truly advisory and consulting. And I think when you can point to some of the clients that we work with today,

that are multi-asset lenders, because it's not just mortgage, it's not just HELOC, it's automobiles, it's credit cards, personal loans, et cetera. I mean, that's an area of lending that is entirely new to me, apart from my own individual experience and that of my wife's, in taking out variety of loan products, right? So, you know, when you know the company you're working with, like today, has the chops and the experience and the references,

to deliver those capabilities to customers of this size, that's fantastic too. And it's very different. I'd say the sales cycle too is much longer because you're talking about products that are millions of dollars. And that means that the selling also involves

Fred Ramstedt (19:11.502)
a greater number of stakeholders within the organization, which can be analogous to the experience I had at True with certain companies. Other companies, you could talk to a handful of people and we're just going to pull this out and we're going to plug you in. And no one's the wiser, except maybe downstream they realize they're not really spending as much time making the same type of corrections to certain types of documents and data elements.

Carter (19:16.29)
Okay.

Fred Ramstedt (19:42.063)
Right? Now with what we're talking about at Wipro, it's very different. know, the LOS is really the means of, how do you want to manufacture your loans today? And how are you going to support the compliance and auditing requirements that you have as a major lender across a number of different asset classes? It's a different conversation.

where I think it is. And that's what's exciting.

Carter (20:15.626)
Even though the sales cycles are much longer, is it an easier sale at Wipro just because they're so big and you can reference deals that you've done with people or not at all?

Fred Ramstedt (20:23.273)
Mm-hmm.

No sale is easy. Even selling a glass of lemonade on one of the stands. And I'm glad to see that kids in our neighborhood still actually make an effort to do something like that during the summer. It's very competitive and it's not easy. And you have to have a mindset of, because this is going to be a long game, how am I making sure that pipeline, and that's always the challenge when you've got an extremely long

Carter (20:27.807)
Yeah, that makes sense.

Fred Ramstedt (20:55.957)
of sales cycle is, you because your buying team and your champions, plural, not one, several, you need to have several champions in a sale, I think, of this size. What if they change? What if they rotate out?

Is that chap?

Carter (21:16.684)
Right, because what if it's a year's long, like I'm sure people quit all the time and yeah, move to different companies.

Fred Ramstedt (21:19.116)
Yeah. Sure. Right. you're doing such a great job in mortgage. We want you on the automobile side of our lending business. And we use something altogether different for our automobile lending than we were entertaining for mortgage. Because I think that's also one of the changes in thinking in the industry. And why would you want

Carter (21:28.341)
Right, yeah.

Fred Ramstedt (21:48.182)
let's just say a more unified loan origination platform. Well, if you're a multi-asset class lender, like most major banks that are household names, that cost is obviously one of them. Reporting and auditing is another. Compliance is another. Adding new products becomes simple or less complicated. And that means time to market for those new products.

you're starting to realize activity there, right? And if you're on all these disparate systems, how do I get them all to talk to one another? Well, they probably don't. So that means you're going to be scrappy and figure out ways of passing data around to get the CFO a report, to get your chief risk officer a report. Instead, here's a dashboard across the board of, you know, what I need to look at.

And that's kind of exciting, but you need to articulate the value to the right people and often enough at the right time. Otherwise, other projects are going to take precedence. Some banks, you're talking to them and then they realize, you know, we're not really thinking about making any material changes to our tech stack because we're going to acquire another bank in six months.

And, you know, when you're targeting the top 50 lenders in the country, you know, that's, there aren't many of them, 50. You know, you kind of know who they are, right? And all of them, if they're not working with us, they're working with someone else. And most of them, you know, I want to be working with them, right? And so that's, that's our challenge. But as a large, again, going to the resources,

Carter (23:25.066)
Right, that is cannot be easier.

Fred Ramstedt (23:45.813)
And I think this is what's cool. You see this on LinkedIn too. All these posts about how you can use AI to prep for a sales discovery call or what kind of questions should I expect Carter to ask if we get the level of engagement in this conversation. And you can do all this preparation, but the company I'm with now...

has invested billions of dollars in AI and I have not just copilot as a resource, I have very specific agent tools. So I'm using for my own benefit tools that our customers want to use to achieve certain other outcomes. And so you're by that familiarity, you're getting better at

at using these new tools. And that's all in my mind. That's what AI is. It's just a tool. It's an enhancement to an existing workflow. It's going to be the main element in changing the design of that workflow. And if you're not getting on the bandwagon, you're going to miss the chance to become more proficient. Or to guess where the

where the next shoe is gonna drop.

Carter (25:16.374)
And you're saying bigger companies just have a lot more firepower with those types of things. Like they'll invest in these tools, whereas a smaller company wouldn't as much.

Fred Ramstedt (25:22.535)
Right, right. And the other thing too is the, we're partnered with Amazon, we're partnered with Google, we're partnered with Microsoft. All of them are building agentic tools. And although in my world, at Wipro Gallagher, we're not working with Anthropic, the company itself, Wipro, the parent is. So all of these...

benefits are being made available to the vast army of employees, the Wiproites that I mentioned before. And upskilling is a huge mandate here. And so learning, and I think this is a big part of selling too. You know, I come from an investment research background. One of the things that I enjoyed about it is every bank, for example, has a history. Bank of New York, that's Alexander Hamilton.

and Aaron Burr strangely enough. So you got a history. Somebody decided to do something. And if you're talking to an IMB where the founder is still there, you need to understand what that origin story is. mean, that's important. That's building rapport with someone who's done something that certainly I haven't done. But I kind of have a feeling that if I can put myself into their shoes,

and understand how the journey that they took to get to where they are. That might give me as a seller, that might give me some insights as to what other aspects of moving this deal forward can I leverage to build credibility, build confidence in the solutioning that my company is proposing, because it's not going to be Fred proposing this. It's going to be Fred is an orchestrator of an

large and diverse band of experts who are going to get moved around at the right time to help the client understand what we can do altogether to achieve their end.

Carter (27:38.508)
That's funny because I just talked to a guy at Aqualisk like an hour ago and he was saying they use a lot of AI too, because a lot of lenders are pretty commoditized or they're pretty similar, but he was saying there's a lot of things where, yeah, like you said, there's a founder who's been there forever. He was in the military or they do, you know, I forget the examples he was giving me, but there's just a lot that you can get that is hard to find online that.

Fred Ramstedt (27:42.281)
yeah.

Carter (28:02.51)
Maybe he learned for, you know, he was using Google Gemini or whatever to learn a lot of this stuff that aided in the, in the sale. So that makes, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Fred Ramstedt (28:05.731)
Yeah, sure. Right. Yeah, no, think and that's what that's again as just as using a tool, right? It's like publicly traded companies. They have to report things about their business. If you don't need to read the LinkedIn posts about reading the 10 case, just start doing that. If you're selling to a public entity, read the reports.

Go on the Wall Street calls, listen to the CEO, the CFO, the CIO talk about things. You're going to differentiate yourself and you're going to have much more meaningful things to contribute when you want to talk about the vision the company has outlined for itself publicly. Well, I can sell to those outcomes. I can sell to that vision because you're not selling software.

You're selling where they want to be and how they want to improve in this instance, manufacturing loans. That's what they're deciding on. But if you tie it to the future vision they have for the company, I think that helps you stay top of mind, particularly again, in often enough sales cycles that are just very long and cause CROs to get really

very like, how are we going to make our numbers? As long as you've got pipeline being built and you're having conversations and you're moving the deals along, even if it's very, very slowly, given the size of certain things, you're doing your job. In my mind.

Carter (29:57.038)
Alright, yeah, think I'll end it here. I think we got some pretty good stuff here.

Fred Ramstedt (30:01.325)
Cool, yeah, no, this was great.